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	Comments on: More on the Draft Judgments Convention In The Light Of COCA	</title>
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	<link>https://lettersblogatory.com/2015/02/26/more-on-the-draft-judgments-convention-in-the-light-of-coca/</link>
	<description>The Blog of International Judicial Assistance</description>
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		<title>
		By: Ted Folkman		</title>
		<link>https://lettersblogatory.com/2015/02/26/more-on-the-draft-judgments-convention-in-the-light-of-coca/#comment-2137</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted Folkman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2015 03:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://lettersblogatory.com/?p=20222#comment-2137</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://lettersblogatory.com/2015/02/26/more-on-the-draft-judgments-convention-in-the-light-of-coca/#comment-2136&quot;&gt;Chris Whytock&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks for the comment, Chris. You raise interesting points.

1. Maybe the ship &lt;em&gt;has&lt;/em&gt; sailed on case-specific exceptions. I&#039;ve suggested that if there is a systemic exception we don&#039;t need case-specific exceptions. Does that work in reverse? If there is a case-specific exception can we dispense with case-specific exceptions? At first blush I&#039;d say no. Can&#039;t we imagine a case where there is no fraud and the case goes entirely according to the prescribed procedure, but the procedure itself fails to satisfy due process? For example, suppose a foreign state still uses wager of law. Or suppose a case where the executive is so powerful and terrifying that judges always do its bidding, even if there&#039;s no procedural fraud in the particular case. What do you think?

2. I think &quot;may&quot; is probably the right choice for Article 4(4). I&#039;m just thinking about this from the American perspective; in federal practice (though not, e.g., Massachusetts practice) a judgment is not stayed pending appeal unless the appellant files a supersedas. So &quot;must&quot; would, I think, be overprotective. The bigger &quot;may&quot; versus &quot;must&quot; problem seems to me to be Article 5. The UFCMJRA has some mandatory grounds and some permissive grounds for non-recognition. Not so here! Again, what do you think?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://lettersblogatory.com/2015/02/26/more-on-the-draft-judgments-convention-in-the-light-of-coca/#comment-2136">Chris Whytock</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment, Chris. You raise interesting points.</p>
<p>1. Maybe the ship <em>has</em> sailed on case-specific exceptions. I&#8217;ve suggested that if there is a systemic exception we don&#8217;t need case-specific exceptions. Does that work in reverse? If there is a case-specific exception can we dispense with case-specific exceptions? At first blush I&#8217;d say no. Can&#8217;t we imagine a case where there is no fraud and the case goes entirely according to the prescribed procedure, but the procedure itself fails to satisfy due process? For example, suppose a foreign state still uses wager of law. Or suppose a case where the executive is so powerful and terrifying that judges always do its bidding, even if there&#8217;s no procedural fraud in the particular case. What do you think?</p>
<p>2. I think &#8220;may&#8221; is probably the right choice for Article 4(4). I&#8217;m just thinking about this from the American perspective; in federal practice (though not, e.g., Massachusetts practice) a judgment is not stayed pending appeal unless the appellant files a supersedas. So &#8220;must&#8221; would, I think, be overprotective. The bigger &#8220;may&#8221; versus &#8220;must&#8221; problem seems to me to be Article 5. The UFCMJRA has some mandatory grounds and some permissive grounds for non-recognition. Not so here! Again, what do you think?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris Whytock		</title>
		<link>https://lettersblogatory.com/2015/02/26/more-on-the-draft-judgments-convention-in-the-light-of-coca/#comment-2136</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Whytock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2015 22:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://lettersblogatory.com/?p=20222#comment-2136</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Great analysis, as usual, Ted&#8212;many thanks. A couple questions/comments: (1) I think we&#039;ve generally been on the same page about the systemic due process exception, and skeptical about the need for case-specific exceptions in light of the systemic one &#8230; but if the train on case-specific exceptions has left the station (as it seems to in the U.S. and in the HCCH draft in Article 5(1)(c)), what are your thoughts on whether the systemic exception is also necessary or appropriate? (2) Article 4(4) reads &quot;may&quot; be postponed or refused. I&#039;ve wondered why this shouldn&#039;t be a &quot;must.&quot; Thoughts?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great analysis, as usual, Ted&mdash;many thanks. A couple questions/comments: (1) I think we&#8217;ve generally been on the same page about the systemic due process exception, and skeptical about the need for case-specific exceptions in light of the systemic one &hellip; but if the train on case-specific exceptions has left the station (as it seems to in the U.S. and in the HCCH draft in Article 5(1)(c)), what are your thoughts on whether the systemic exception is also necessary or appropriate? (2) Article 4(4) reads &#8220;may&#8221; be postponed or refused. I&#8217;ve wondered why this shouldn&#8217;t be a &#8220;must.&#8221; Thoughts?</p>
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